Syracuse University Outing Club

Letter to the Chancellor

I probably have too much free time on my hands but ... I don't like Dean Baker very much.

Chancellor Cantor,

It has come to my attention that Assistant Dean of Students Roy Baker has stated "I do not trust student leaders; it is my job to not trust student leaders." Not only am I a student leader, I am also a student/paying customer of Syracuse University and as such would like to share with you my thoughts on this matter.

I was unaware, when I decided to come here, that a portion of the thousands of dollars I spend and borrow to do so would be used to employ an administrator for the express purpose of distrusting myself and my fellow students. The last time i checked, I am an adult and am in no way required to subject myself to this sort of treatment.

Thank you for taking the time to consider my concerns. I hope that this was a misunderstanding and not the result of any institutional policy which might cause current and future students to feel alienated by the Administration of Syracuse University.

Benjamin W. Stephens

Syracuse University Outing Club

Syracuse University Outing Club

This is a letter I just sent to Chancellor Cantor, after our being informed that we were moved:

May 5, 2005

Dear Chancellor Cantor,

I am writing to you on behalf of the Syracuse University Outing Club, aka SUOC, and all the students of your university. Since I have read your response to a letter from Ed Grossman, I am sure you are aware of the recent determination to recategorize SUOC as a club sport. This was done against the wishes of all the members of SUOC as well as against the wishes of the Student Association, SA. My concern with this issue, aside from the future implications to SUOC’s management, funding, and leadership, is the much more basic flagrant disrespect that has been shown to your students and I ask you to postpone your decision on this matter in order to amend the situation.

I was always under the impression that the purpose of education is to prepare students of today to be leaders of tomorrow. I believe this to especially be the job of universities such as yours. How exactly are you preparing your students to become leaders if you completely ignore their voice and give them no opportunity to impact the decisions that affect them? I believe you should be fostering their sense of leadership and initiative, rather than trying to crush it.
Most concerning to me on this matter has been the attitude of Ass. Dean of Students Roy Baker. He has been blatantly rude to leaders of SUOC and completely disrespectful of students in general. He has openly said that he doesn’t trust the students, that it is his “job not to trust the students,” as he stated in a meeting with representatives from SUOC, SA, and Rec Services. Following the delivery of a letter stating the switch of SUOC to being a club sport, Dean Baker refused to even meet with SUOC representatives when they requested to speak with him with the assistance of SA. The representatives were asked to please leave, allowing Mr. Baker to speak with the SA rep alone. When the appropriateness of this was questioned, they were informed that it was appropriate because he asked them too. I find this behavior repugnant. To the best of my knowledge, college students are almost all legal adults. They can vote, they can go to war and fight for their country, and they should be treated as adults in their dealings with administration. Since when did it become acceptable to treat people so crassly? I don’t put up with that kind of behavior from my seven-year-old nephew and I fail to see why I should put up with it from an administrator. That is simply basic manners and application of the Golden Rule.
Also, Mr. Baker had stated in the aforementioned meeting that the university did not wish to back SUOC into anything by taking action at the end of the semester. Yet that is exactly what has happened, by passing down a decision on the day after the last day of classes, when all students should be preparing for exams. Moreover, the timing of the whole discussion was poor. The first serious mention of moving SUOC to club sports came in the form of an ambush at the budget meeting for SA, where SUOC Budget Chair Megan Jonas was defending her budget. Mr. Baker acted completely inappropriately by motioning that the SUOC budget be tabled. Administrators cannot make motions at SA meetings. As any administrator should know, the last two weeks of any semester are incredibly stressful and filled with schoolwork. By springing this issue on SUOC at that time, your administration put the students involved in a precarious position. They were forced to either pay attention to their studies or to their club. For many SUOCers, the club is not just a hobby or a pastime, it’s a family and a way of life. I feel it is absurd, irresponsible and dishonest for administrators to ask a student to choose between their studies and their beloved club at such a time.

In light of the current situation and the behavior of your staff, I feel it would be best to postpone the recognition of SUOC as a club sport until the fall semester, in order to more fully take into consideration the wishes of your student body. There are valid concerns that have not been fully addressed, such as budget. Where is the money to come from? Also, the question that burns in the back of my mind is this: Over and over, your administration has professed that they do not wish to change the structure of SUOC and that the club operates well as is. SUOC has been told that nothing about the running of the club will change. Why then must we move at all? Can we not consider having a liaison/ advisor under Rec Services without merging with them? Please take the time to respond to these questions and be well informed from all sides of the issue. This is not a matter that should be decided upon without lengthy discussion with all parties involved: SUOC, Rec Services, and SA. Perhaps your decision will still be the same then, but at least you will have fully considered the wishes of your students and not lead them to believe that their administration neither respects nor cares about them. Give them the knowledge that when they leave your institution, they can make a difference in the world around them. That is your responsibility as an educator, after all.

Sincerely,
Karina L. Conkrite
SUOCer, community member

More letters

I sent this to everybody on the contact list. Who knows?
--

I am sure by now that you are aware with the situation with the SU Outing Club. I realize that discussion between the Outing Club, Rec. Services, and the administration has been rather heated lately. I think a large part of the problem has been a lack of communication.

The Outing Club was first approached about this issue during Student Association finance meetings, and the approach was perceived as being quite hostile (and in violation of SA laws) on the part of Mr. Baker. Whether or not that was the intention of his remarks during the finance meetings is unclear; it was quite possibly a misunderstanding. Regardless of his intentions, an immediate tone of distrust was put into place, the effects of which we have been seeing on campus this week.

The Outing Club's reaction to the issue can be further explained by an encounter with Mitch Gartenberg, head of Recreation Services, in 2001. Mr. Gartenberg diffused a situation involving the Outing Club's equipment room by publicly stating there were no plans to change the organization nor to force it to merge with Recreation Services. I quote a letter that Mr. Gartenberg wrote to the Editor of the Daily Orange on 23 January 2001:

"Any such partnership [between SA organizations and Recreation Services] will be a decision that organizations will need to evaluate for themselves and their constituencies, as there will be no required partnership mandate."

It seems that the Outing Club is now having a "required partnership mandate," enforced, the details of which seem tenuous at best.

The problems that the Outing Club sees with this mandate are not in the immediate future, but years down the road. Currently, Recreation Services does not have the budget to support the Outing Club. Both Mr. Gartenberg and Mr. Lore have been very upfront on this point. Further, the Student Association has told SUOC on several occasions that, if the Outing Club is eligible to receive funding from the co-curricular fee, it would receive little to no funding from SA.

Putting two and two together, the Outing Club has become suspicious that this move will make the organization vulnerable down the road -- a lack of SA funding may make future generations of SUOCers more likely to move the club entirely to Recreation Services, a move that the current membership feels simply will not fit. Student leadership and autonomy are the key ingredients to our organization, and being merged into Recreation Services and the Outdoor Education program in the future will kill the organization's soul.

These points aside, I believe this forced move of jurisdiction is bringing to light something that the administration of this University is missing in its mission: Universities exist because of students, not because of administrators. I am not a practitioner of the idea that a University should exist to serve students. I simply believe that a University should present its students with opportunities, decisions, and, not least importantly, information.

What SUOC would like at this point is straight talk from the administration. What are the risk management and liability problems with the organization under the Student Association? How does a move to Recreation Services protect our organization and the University from those issues? Could we negotiate a contract to ensure continued funding through the Student Association and to protect the autonomy of the Outing Club indefinitely? Finally, pertaining to Mr. Gartenberg's earlier remarks, what assurance does the Outing Club have that the administration will not further stifle the leadership opportunities of the organization?

I truly believe we all have each other's best intentions with this administrative move. The trouble is that we do not know what each other wants. Currently, we have a petition of over 500 signatures from members of the University community who want to know why this move is happening and what alternatives exist. If Syracuse University wants to demonstrate its role as a Student-Centered Research University, it will be attentive to the wishes of its students, faculty, and alumni, and make a move on this matter to show that attentiveness.

Respectfully,
Well, you know the rest.

Bert's letter to Cantor and Co.

Ms. Cantor,

I am an alumnus from 2004 and an ex-President of SUOC.

I wish to express may grave concern in regard to the Syracuse University Outing Club being reclassified as a club sport. I regard SUOC as being an incredibly successful leadership development program that attests to Syracuse University as being in the forefront of leader development for 70 years. Originating from a service fraternity, this social club can be best served under OLGEL and their leadership initiatives. A move to club sports is a strong mark against this history and a push toward their activities as merely hobbies.

SUOC has created leaders that have just this past year have reached the summit of Everest and been on survey/exploration teams some of the deepest caves in the world. Many of their current student members are highly regarded professional guides during their summers. An enormous percentage of their ranks are leaders, not simply patrons.

Although SUOC uses some technical skills, their focus has always been on training leaders, not athletes. They create a diverse group of leaders, who constantly are working to enhance each others skills, with relationships that truly transcend gender, race, creed and religion. Recreation Services does not have the expertise to advise them on their technical, leadership or social objectives.

SUOC should be celebrated as one of the greatest triumphs of OLGEL and their leadership fostering initiatives.

Brett Kelly

Remote Sensing Engineer

U.S. Forest Service

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CU Boulder Alpine club e mail

Sent to: jamfan2@yahoo.com at the CU Boulder Alpine CLub

Hey Jeff,
I was wondering if you could pass this on to anyone in your club that may be able to answer/help(....or maybe you yourself could) on the issue of administrative control.

My name is Jessica Logan, I am the outgoing President of the Syracuse University Outing Club (SUOC). We are a completely student run club and have been around since 1935...the second oldest outing club in the country after Dartmouth I believe (student leaders, student help positions, trips just for the students). The relationships that are built within our club are life long and we hold strong ties with our alumni. Activities within SUOC include horizontal and vertical caving, rock climbing, ice climbing, mountain biking, back packing, bonsai sledding, white water kaying and canoeing, flatwater canoeing, x-c skiing and of the occasional mo-fo family camping trip.

In the 70 years that this club has been around there has only been a few deaths (the last in the 60's), very few injuries and absolutely no legal issues. As with many other outing clubs around the country we have also had our run-ins with the university administration. It first happened in the 70's when they tried to move us around and push us into other groups. About 5 years ago a new head of the school's Recreation Services locked our Equipment Room (and changed the keys) on us without letting us know. (We have approximately $200,000 worth of gear accumulated from over the years). Within the past year an Outdoor Education program has been started under Rec Services and suddenly we were told that we should move from being under the "control" of the Student Association and move to be a club sport under Rec Services. Of course this made us all weary that this was the first step in being sucked into their outdoor ed program and ultimately be lost forever.

2 weeks ago, the Student Association was allocating all the funding for the past year. SUOC is in the top 4 funded groups on campus. When our bill came up (we were being allocated $29,000 for the year....the most we have ever gotten) the Dean of Student Affairs motioned to put our bill on the table as we should be a club sport and not under the Student Association....apparently it was already in the working, without us knowing at all. First of all, as an administrator, he does not have a right to make a motion in the student government, second of all, his motion was shot down and our budget was passed anyway.

So, we have since met numerous times with the administration, rec services and held personal club meetings discussing this. From what started as a fear of a Rec Services "take-over" has since turned into a fight for our rights as students. We are given vague answers for this move; primarily because of Risk Managment of course, but at the same time, we are told that risk management would be the same where-ever we are placed. We were also told that ultimately, SUOC and the student body would not have a say in the decisions that affect a strong student run club that has managed fine under the "rule' of the student government for as long as it has been around.

So where this brings you guys in....I was just wondering what kind of structure your club has and if you have had any problems with the administration like this. When looking for grad schools last summer I came across your page and instantly fell in love with your club because it looked like something that could possibly resemble the amazing structure that we have spent so long forming here in Syracuse. But I also noticed such things like the picture of Steve Southard drinking what looks like a bottle of good-ol' whiskey or something delicous along those lines. Granted the lable isn't showing, and the university cant prove anything, but administrators can be dicks if they want to and still make a deal out of it...of course I also noticed CU Boulder also has a "legalize it" club or somethign like that.....ha, maybe New York is just too uptight!

Wow, I realize that this is a really long e mail and that there is a lot of information, even though I feel like there is a lot more that i could give you to make the picture more clear. Ultimately, I just wanted to see if you have run into any of the same problems, or know of other clubs that have. The relationships, leadership skills and memories are what has made my college days what they are. I wouldnt be anything near the person I am today if it werent for the things I learned in the past 4 years in SUOC. We cant let the administration take the students voices away from them and tell them how to run their student clubs.

Thank you so much for your time. Again, sorry this was so long!
Jessica Logan
SU Outing Club President

Letter to the Chancellor

Dear Chancellor Cantor,

I am an alumnus of SU and of the SU Outing Club. I am extremely upset to learn that SUOC is once again under threat from the university administration. The story is quite sordid -- though I am not the one to tell it. This happened twice before in recent years and each time the forces of darkness were beaten back. As the news of this gets out, I am sure that many other SUOC alumni will share my feelings of frustration and anger.

Are you familiar with SUOC? It is one of the most successful campus organizations funded by the Student Association. It has a proud history stretching back 70 years (at least). It is part of the Intercollegiate Outing Club Association (IOCA) that includes Dartmouth, MIT, Harvard, Cornell, and many others.

SUOC was certainly an important part of my SU experience. My friends from that era all share this sentiment. Thus, we are appalled at the repeated heavy handed attempts to destroy the club. Why would the university want to destroy one of its most successful parts? I should be clear about one thing: SUOC is run entirely by the membership, who are responsible for budget, safety, trips, equipment, governance, and all other aspects of club. They take these responsibilities very seriously. This is the source of SUOCs strength, and is the main reason it has such a positive effect on those who are members. (It is also great fun.)

My purpse in contacting you is to lend support to SUOC in its fight for existence. The details of what has happened are probably best learned from the officers of the club. I urge you to look into this matter.

I spoke to Sonita this afternoon about this situation. She indicated that she would put me in touch with the appropriate person in the administration.

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Dr. Matt Stillerman, PhD Physics 1985

----------------------

I sent this note on Friday April 22. Just managed to speak with Dean Urtz, the Dean of Students today. I tried all of the arguments on her -- with little effect. The only thing that dented her composure was when I read to her from the minutes of the meeting with Dean Baker. She seemed genuinely shocked by his remarks, as reported there, and said that she intended to look into it.

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ties/other avenues? & SUOCer til death

Syracuse University Outing Club
SOUC is a member of the Intercollegiate Outing Club Association and SOUC GROTTO is a member of the National Speleological Society. I wonder if any help would be forth coming from them, or if SUOC has any other ties(?) that may be concerned about a for-profit/administrative takeover. I know its reaching (even if they cared, the tie needs some pull to it)...but trying all the angles can't hurt. Although I guess the Power grab issue is really solved by convincing those above Mitch that money will be short-coming from alumni or if insurance is an actual problem then dealing with it and showing how the take-over won't.

Well, I'm off to write my letters as an SU alumnus. I'll make sure to include that as a “lifetime member”, my SOUC membership card is laminated, in my wallet and has the expiration date of “DEATH” written on it. I’ll never think of it differently. Kagen

Letter of support: COC still under SA, risks not addressed by move

Dear ___

I am writing to express my alarm at the current moves to force the
Syracuse University Outing Club (SUOC) from the Student Association to
become a Club Sport under Rec. Services. I doubt that any other part of
OGLEL provides more worthwhile experiential learning opportunities than
SUOC, and I fear that moving SUOC outside of the Student Association and
student governance would cause irrevocable damage.

Given the uproar on the SUOC alumni email list, I'm sure you will receive
other letters attesting to the value of SUOC as a student-run organization
within the Student Association. I would like instead to focus on two
specific issues.

First, Mitch Gartenburg and others have stated that SU wishes to emulate
Cornell's successful outdoor education program and have suggested that
this is somehow incompatible with the existence of SUOC as a Student
Association club. Our experience at Cornell is quite the opposite: the
Cornell Outing Club remains a Student Association club while Cornell
Outdoor Education is a University department. In fact, the director of
Cornell Outdoor Education, Todd Miner (607-255-8004, tm49@cornell.edu),
recently expressed his support for this model in an email to the SUOC
email list:

At Cornell the Outing Club is still very much alive and well and
kicking, and it is not under recreational services. It remains an
independent club, I believe under the general student government.
Thankfully, at Cornell we enjoy many outdoor organizations. The
Cornell Outing Club provides backcountry and outdoor recreational
opportunities for the campus and community. TEVA does the same
thing for Jewish students and the community. Cornell Outdoor Education
provides outdoor and adventure physical education, student
leadership, and teambuilding. A number of other clubs and units
practice all kinds of outdoor recreation and education (skiing,
sailing, natural history, etc.).
As the head of COE I very much value and appreciate the mission
and role of the Cornell Outing Club.

Second, I would like to question one of the contradictions in arguments
put forward about risk-management. If Dean Baker and Rec. Services claim
that the move from SA to Rec. Services is necessary because of "risk
management issues", it is incongruous to argue simultaneously that there
will be no changes to the way SUOC is run. I understand that the
University has a responsibility to manage risk and also that random
reorganization will not mitigate risk. However, if these risk management
issues can be articulated (they haven't been to date) then there could be
a constructive dialog about how to address them under the current
framework.

I thank you for your time considering this issue and I hope that SUOC will
remain as valuable a part of the experience of Syracuse students as it has
been for the past 70 years.

Yours sincerely,
Simeon Warner
(Cornell Outing Club Advisor)

Why "fix" what is not broken??

I just sent this letter to the Chancellor and all those other high-falutin' people:

I am a Syracuse alum writing to request that you leave the Syracuse Outing Club under its current capable student-run leadership. I was a SUOC member from 1985-1989. My involvement with this remarkable club was the most valuable experience I had at Syracuse University. When I discovered it during my freshman year I felt like I had finally found some kindred spirits in the midst of a large unwelcoming student body. I have never been part of a more caring and supportive group of peers. We forged lifelong friendships and continue to feel deeply connected to all the generations of SUOCers who have come before and after. This club is truly a giant extended family.

I had great respect for and confidence in those of my peers who took on leadership roles in SUOC. They brought thorough knowledge, safety-awareness and skill to every trip. It was so empowering to be taught by them and to grow into a leadership role over the years myself. This unique organization showed me that people can work together with respect, compassion and equality and when they do, every member becomes personally invested in its success.

Now I am a high school teacher who understands the value of empowering my students with the right to make their own choices and trust their own leadership skills. Democratic (student-centered) classrooms work much better than dictatorships. It surprises me that there are administrators at SU who do not know this and who wish to take over a club that is already healthy, strong, safe and vibrant just the way it is. Why "fix" what is not broken??

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Kendall Kalkstein Laird

FW: SUOC Blog

To add to the Blog...
I sent the following letter to the Chancellor, Deans, and Dir. Of Student Affairs on 4-27-05

Dear ________

It is my understanding that the University is currently proposing to move the Syracuse University Outing Club under the University's Outdoor Recreation Program. Through this letter I urge you to keep the Outing Club as a student run club through Student Government.

I am a 1988 graduate. I had an incredible education at Syracuse, SUNY ESF, and the University of Washington (where I received my Masters degree). These institutions provided me an excellent education. I must also say that the single most important experience I had in those years was my involvement with the Syracuse University Outing Club. This experience provided me leadership, professional, and social skills that a single class or summer job could not have.

I was a member of SUOC for all four years at the University. I held numerous positions in the club as well as being president in 1987-88. To date, these years are the most amazing and memorable experience in my life.

On a personal level - I was introduced to outdoor sports I never would have tried. I vastly improved my outdoor skills. I was trained in first aid. I learned how to organize, plan and carry out trips and became a trip leader. I still maintain an incredible network of friends and colleagues from the Outing Club. I left with lifelong friends not just from my own graduating class but from those before and after me. The alumni group from SUOC is strong and we keep in regular touch.

On a professional level I learned more from SUOC than any business class could have taught. Through this Club I learned how to run an organization, set agendas, run and facilitate meetings, manage and defend budgets, set priorities, resolve problems and conflicts, manage the equipment and inventory, provide service to members and students, ensure trip leaders were well-trained, track progress and accomplishments, and ensure that this was a fun and safe organization.

Looking back almost twenty years now, what was so impressive about that Club was how organized and responsible we all were. The Club was so much more than just taking trips. We learned to work together and be responsible for the success of every aspect of the organization. We were owners. We were partners. It was our club and its success or failure depended on us. That ethic has continued. The Club is over 70 years old and it continues to provide a place for students to learn practical life lessons, responsibilities and friendships that could not happen through a University run event where students are not expected to take on the full responsibilities of managing an organization.

SUOC is working as a student club that can provide experiences that the University itself can't. This is not a bad thing. It is a good thing. Having a diversity of student run organizations is a draw to many students looking at colleges and should be a priority for the administration too.

I strongly urge you to continue to allow students to exercise leadership and remain in control of their own activity clubs. Specifically, the Syracuse University Outing Club should remain underneath the Student Government.

Sincerely,

Sandra Kilroy

SUOC Blog

To add to the Blog.
I sent the following letter to the Chancellor, Deans, and Dir. Of Student Affairs on 4-27-05